May 3rd, 2024 /
Shauna Sprunger /
Welcome to the next episode of Provo City School District’s What’s Up With the Sup podcast. I am Superintendent Wendy Dau. This week, I am joined by our new Business Administrator, Devyn Dayley. We will be sharing information that we are presenting at our community meetings regarding the district’s construction and capital facilities needs for the next five years, including options for addressing and funding these needs. But first, let me share our updates.
Wendy: Welcome everyone to this week’s podcast for this week. My guest is our business administrator, Devyn Dayley. Welcome to our show.
Devyn: Thank you.
Wendy: I invited Devyn to be on this podcast so that we could go through and talk about some of the facility needs that we have as a district and how we can and that you could help us understand the financial aspects of bonds and how we pay for facilities and what that looks like and how our schools are funded.
And we really felt like that might be helpful to our public. So thank you for being willing to be here and to explain all of this very complicated stuff.
Devyn: I’m happy to be here. I always love talking about finance.
Wendy: I know you do. You love it so much. so much.
Devyn: It is true.
Wendy: It is your first, maybe not your first love, maybe your second love, or maybe your fifth love.
Devyn: I don’t know. It’s pretty close. It’s pretty close.
Wendy: I thought so.
Devyn: It’s what I know most about.
Wendy: So this is really an informational podcast to try to explain some things you can follow along. I’m going to be following the presentation that we are giving out at our community meetings. That whole presentation is available on our website.
So you can kind of follow along on the podcast and just go through the slides and it will show you what’s going on. We’re basically going to make a script for you so that you can hear the same things in case you can’t come to one of those meetings. And then we’re also going to address some of the questions that we’ve been getting across the district so far about some of our facilities needs and some of the financial, um, aspects of this.
So let me just tell you a little bit about what we want to do in this podcast. So we would like to talk about our most urgent facility needs over the next 5 to 10 years. We want to also talk about our current construction projects and their status and discuss funding. And then on our website, there’s actually a submit a question button that you can click on.
And if you have a question or you have comments or you have feedback, we would love to hear from you so that we can research those questions if we need to, but we would love to have your email address so that we can actually follow up with you and be helpful to you in this process. We really want this to be an ongoing conversation with our entire community.
We want the feedback even when it’s negative. It’s good to have that feedback. We don’t know how We can get better if we don’t hear that. And with that, here we go. Are you ready, Devyn?
Devyn: I’m ready.
Wendy: Okay. So first off, we want to talk about our two top priorities for Provo City School District that we’re really focused on before the year 2030.
First and foremost, we need to re examine and, and finish the Timpview rebuild and and let me talk just for a minute about this and Devyn will chime in because she’s been here in the district for over 20 years so has a lot of history but. We are almost finished with the current phase of construction that we funded with a GO bond in 2021.
And Devyn’s going to talk a little bit more about why that bond only covered the portion of the school, that academic wing as the primary portion of the school that it’s rebuilt and why it wasn’t a complete rebuild of Timpview high school. But as we’ve gone in, and as we tore down the old classroom wing, there were a whole bunch of structural issues that we have now discovered that really do need to be addressed for students, staff, and patrons safety.
We really thought it was something where we could kind of button up the building. Wait a few years, focus on other construction areas and that really is not the case based on the information That we have have I said anything wrong yet Devyn?
Devyn: Nope. You’re on the right track.
Wendy: Okay, and our second priority is to really determine how to use the current Dixon Middle School site,really based on student and community needs and we want to build something that will match those needs.
So those are our two top priorities before 2030. The two top priorities for Provo City School District before 2035 are that we need to determine the needs of our oldest buildings that still have not been touched. Westridge Elementary, which was built in 1979 and Canyon Crest Elementary, which was built in 1982.
And in case you didn’t hear at the board meeting on Tuesday, the board has authorized the beginning of of the Boundary and Feasibility Study to take place. That’s really going to take us a whole year to really evaluate the boundaries of our schools. Are we really utilizing our spaces effectively? We have some schools that are really becoming quite small and others that are becoming quite large and so are there some ways that we can re-evaluate that and really be responsible with taxpayer dollars while still being true to our communities and our neighborhood schools.
And we also need to evaluate, have we placed programs in the right locations and does that make sense? And how do we continue to maximize opportunities for students while still being really transparent with the public and being really responsible with public dollars. And then our fourth need before 2035 is to create greater efficiency in the use of our current district office space. We have several different campuses, but our district offices are primarily in three different campuses. We’re at the main district office and then Grandview Technology Center and our Hillside building and it really just cuts down on our efficiency as district level employees to ensure that we are supporting our schools effectively.
But with that, let’s start talking about Timpview High School. As I said before, when the old part of the building was being prepared for demolition, we discovered several problem areas. There’s settling of the building, sinking and sliding soil, structural concrete not properly reinforced. There are places where the roof and the walls are not connected.
And also when you start looking at that there, you know, because of when the building was built, it was built under different fire code and ADA requirements for students with disabilities. Those obviously have now changed, and so as we’re trying to meet the needs of our students, we’re also looking at, well, if we’re going to go in and start evaluating these other aspects, then we need to make sure that we’re meeting the needs of all of our kids as well.
What you will see in our presentation are several pictures. Devyn, do you want to talk a little bit more about some of the specific things that they have found through this process and why it creates great concern for us as a district?
Devyn: Yep, um, if you look at the pictures, there’s several pictures and what we’ve found in multiple walls.
This is in the administration wing. They have rebar in the walls, but instead of being surrounded by concrete, it’s just a free floating rebar. So that is a significant issue with the stability of the building not having the reinforcement that needs to be in those walls to keep students safe. It’s also, there’s no grout reinforcement at the connections.
You can see several pictures where in the middle of the concrete, there’s just a lot of blank space rather than being filled in the way that it’s supposed to. In one of the pictures, you can see there’s a lot of collapsed soil beneath the surface of the concrete. So there’s not a lot holding it up other than the years of the concrete.
As they’ve torn out some of the concrete, there’s been gaping holes underneath some of those areas that need to be addressed. And that’s part of what’s happening with that settling soil and part of what has manifested itself with the earthquake during the pandemic. And then there’s places that the walls and the roof are not connected the way that they should be. So that there is no stability as there should be no give and there, it looks like there is a little bit of give. So some of those structural issues give us a great amount of concern for the safety of our students.
Wendy: I’m glad that you brought that up. I want to skip ahead for just a minute because several years ago when we were first looking at this rebuild of Timpview, state risk came in and basically started to identify that our building, Timpview High School, could not be insured anymore because there were so many problems that were happening with it.
And what they do is they grant us a waiver to remain on the state’s insurance as long as we demonstrate that we have a plan and we’re showing progress towards fixing these issues. So my understanding of this is that we went in and originally wanted to rebuild the entire building. And bring all of that into compliance with what state risk needed, updated building codes, all of those particular things.
And when that bond did not pass, then we worked with state risk to identify the part of the building that was the most problematic. And that is what we focused on in this first phase. Am I summarizing that well, or what else would you add to that?
Devyn: The only other thing I would add to that is with the agreement also that we would be putting in the helical piers underneath parts of the building that were newer and that we’re going to stay. That is some of those things that are happening right now in the construction.
Wendy: Okay. And so what that does is it connects the building. My understanding is not only does it compact the soil, there are certain levels that the soil has to be compacted to to meet those requirements. But then they’re also drilling it down into the bedrock.
Devyn: So that is my understanding as well.
Wendy: Okay As we’re going through this then we rebuilt that academic wing and then as they went and tore down the old academic wing where those classrooms were this is where we have found a lot of these problems and then the second thing that kind of exposed this was we had a situation where the the roof over the administration and counseling center is is at its life’s end and so it leaked and as they went in to repair that to do a temporary fix, they’ve discovered a lot of this in the administration and counseling wings as well. Do I have that right?
Devyn: Yep, that is correct. And in the evaluation of what to do, there’s the short term fix that would probably be work that’s a lot less expensive through the next phase if we decide to go through another phase or a much more expensive long term, which would outlive the building itself.
Wendy: Okay, so we’re trying to make these decisions based on. What we have money for, because you can’t spend more money than you have, but also trying to be responsible and recognize that we’re trying to maximize that safety for our students and patrons.
Devyn: Correct. And the other issue is, is, you know, our elementary schools have decreased in enrollment over the few years, but our high schools are seeing an increase in enrollment. So a lot of the spaces that were not going to be addressed right now don’t fit the capacity of the students in those programs.
Wendy: That’s an excellent point. Timpview High School was not built originally to house as many students as it has, so now as it’s approaching almost 2, 300 students, that presents some challenges, particularly in the performing arts and band and orchestra and storage of instruments and all of those pieces.
Devyn: Correct. And also some ADA requirements and the CTE building that don’t allow some of our students that require accommodations to take some classes because they’re inaccessible.
Wendy: Yeah, I actually was speaking with the assistant superintendent over secondary education. We actually have to transport one of our students over to Provo High School for that class because we don’t have a way to get them into that particular CTE Lab in that wing.
Devyn: Correct.
Wendy: Those are some significant barriers that we have an obligation and a responsibility to address moving forward to make sure our students can access these things.
Devyn: Yep, and so we went and talked about a couple of different options with the future phases of Timpview, moving them up.
One option would be completed in 2027 by using portable trailers and moving administration to a more common area, and then option two would be finished in 2029 without having to move students. And quite honestly, I think a lot of people are tired of construction, including district office personnel, um, but
Wendy: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Devyn: I know it’s crazy to not want to be building forever, but when we look at the options and displacing students and creating really difficult situations for teachers and especially in the performing arts area where they wouldn’t have a place to perform. That would have to be moved to Centennial and they would be in those portables that are really not big enough, especially for the larger orchestra and band programs that we are leaning more towards the 2029 but are really anxious to get some public input.
The other piece of that is we will have more parking if we do the 2029 because some of the areas where we would have to put those portable trailers, it will be able to be used for that parking.
Wendy: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it costs more money. So the overall construction cost goes up if we use the 2027. So even though it’s taking us longer to construct it because those portables are quite expensive, my understanding is that’s going to add almost a million or over a million.
Devyn: Over a million, just the purchase of the trailers would be at 1. 5 million. And then that’s not including the construction costs to attach them to electricity and water. But it also is things that we’d have to do inside the building to help with soundproof and storage. So it would be well over a million dollars that we would save.
Wendy: I think sometimes, you know, in my mind, I’m like, let’s get this over with, like, you know, and, and if I’m one of those neighbors that lives on Timpview Drive, I’m going to be like, please do not make this keep going. I completely sympathize with them and their frustration with that. But in actuality, it will mean fewer cars parked in front of their homes because we’ll have access to more parking and what we’ll actually be doing in that later phase is we’ll finish a section, then move the students into that section, then demolish the next and so on and so forth.
Devyn: Correct. Yep. So one section would be done. We’d move students, then we would demolish and then we would move on to the next one.
Wendy: And here’s actually a pretty good map of this on the presentation that kind of shows you, if you look at the map, the blue part on the map shows the current existing building. And the cafeteria would not be rebuilt. That’s just being remodeled. Correct?
Devyn: Correct.
Wendy: Okay. So that’s going to. Present a cost savings and then the orange portions are the rebuilt portions really dealing with the administration, the counseling center. I walked by a counseling office and they can’t have more than one student in there. Some of those offices are tiny and so they have to sometimes schedule outside of there to even be able to speak with students. And so there’s just a lot of challenges there, but a CTE wing, auditorium, performing arts wing, cafeteria remodel would all be part of this.
Devyn: Correct
Wendy: Okay. And then I was thinking about as well, something to note is we had a couple of comments at one of our community meetings.
One was how do the teachers feel about this? And I thought it was great that our assistant superintendent’s been working with principal Tu’ua, Momi Tu’ua and went and actually talked with those teachers and they said they would be willing to do the faster option, but they had quite a long list of things that they needed. Like I need a portable with a 12 foot ceiling because I teach dance and we have to do lifts and things like that. And what did we find out about 12 foot ceiling portables?
Devyn: 12 foot ceiling portables don’t exist, we’ve discovered. At least in the size that we would need for the trailers, we’d need two quads, which really are four classrooms for each one.
One classroom would be two of the classrooms in the quad. And it still is almost 500 square feet less than what they currently have in the existing building.
Wendy: Oh wow.
Devyn: And so, teachers, I think everyone is tired of construction, but at the same time, we need to fix some of the issues that are some of those pain points for the teachers. And where we couldn’t meet a lot of their assurance, I would rather take a little bit longer and be able to give them a good space and allow them to use their current space while they’re waiting.
Wendy: We had a parent, too, last night, who talked about his daughter being in the performing arts and being concerned about, you know, they get excited, right, to go to the high school and perform in the awesome high school auditorium. And so, Oh, nope, you have to go back to your middle school to do that. That it just psychologically has, has an impact. Right? And so just recognizing the needs of the students as well, even, even with it being under construction. So I know you’re going to go into a little bit more about the funding of that, especially if we, if we do the longer route, what that might look like.
Devyn: Correct. And, and if we go the longer route, we can waterfall the bonds a little bit more where we can issue a part of the bonds in one year when we need them, and then as soon as we’re ready for the next phase, we can, which will help keep the increase in property taxes at a minimum.
Wendy: That’s awesome. The other thing that I get asked a lot is why is it so expensive to build these buildings and you know, my house was built in 1931 and you know, I’m not tearing it down and completely rebuilding it. So why does the school, I mean, this school is newer than that and you’re completely rebuilding it.
And so I think it’s important for our community to recognize that the construction requirements for K 12 buildings are much higher than they are even for a charter school, because it’s based on occupancy, it’s also based on there are higher safety standards when we’re dealing with children versus things that just house only adults.
I hear this question all the time. How come BYU could take over Provo, the old Provo High, but we couldn’t stay in that building. And it’s because when you’re housing adults, the requirements are less than they are for K-12 students. Am I correct in understanding that?
Devyn: That is. And plus, um, Provo High’s enrollment had gone beyond what the capacity was. And some of those buildings were outbuildings that BYU is not using. They tore them down when they took possession of the building so that they could make sure that nobody was in those buildings that were a little less safe.
Wendy: I appreciate that clarification because I do get asked that question quite a lot.
There is a link in our presentation to the school construction resource manual. I am sure that you will want to read that cover to cover, but it’s riveting.
Devyn: It’s riveting.
Wendy: But what’s awesome about it is it has a very good table of contents. And so if you have specific questions about something, you can go to that and find out, well, what are the building requirements?
And then if you have questions of us about well, how are we meeting those requirements or whatever, that would be something where you could reach out to us and we would be happy to help explain that. We want to make sure that we’re being very transparent about this process and communicating as effectively as possible.
Devyn: Correct. And some of those requirements are fixing what didn’t happen in the 1960s and 70s when some of our original buildings were built, which provides us with a lot more confidence in the stability of the buildings for long term.
Wendy: Yeah, there’s a lot more engineering that goes into it, a lot more with the architectural
Devyn: Soil samples.
Wendy: Yes. All of the things that we have been hearing about in our construction updates. I have learned more about this process than I ever thought I would.
Devyn: Me too.
Wendy: Okay. Let’s talk about our next priority, which is the Dixon Middle School site. I went out with board members to a couple of meetings, one at Timpanogos Elementary and one at Dixon Middle School back in, I believe it was at the end of January, early February, just to get some feedback from the Dixon community about what they wanted to see with this space.
So, for those of you that might not know, Dixon Middle School is moving over to Shoreline Middle School at the beginning of the next school year, and so we will have this seven acre site that we need to decide what we’re going to do with. And we really wanted to get input from the community. And the top priority that I heard time and time again was please keep this a space for students and for community use.
And I think because there was so much emotion tied to moving Dixon over to Shoreline out of that really, you know, it’s a central piece of the downtown Provo neighborhood. And when that got moved, it was very disheartening to many people. I’ve had many people come in and meet with me to just talk with me about how frustrating that was for them.
And so what we heard in that was the community did not want that property to be sold to a developer. They got concerned about you know, their property taxes going up as a result of them becoming high rise apartments or condos, and they didn’t want office space either. They didn’t want just a bunch of adults and then the building really abandoned in the evening. They love seeing kids and that education process. And so we started looking at some of our needs as a district and we’re starting to brainstorm some ways in which we can actually make that happen. Which I think is so exciting when we can have a win like that. So I hope people get as excited about this as I’m going to be excited about it.
Devyn: So there are not, might not be many people who get as excited about these things as we do, but we love to hear what the community’s ideas are because we really do want to listen and we want to make sure that the community is, is heard and that we’re putting things in place that are beneficial to the, the citizens around that school.
Wendy: Absolutely. So just so that people know as well, like, you know, what’s happening here, are you going to board up this building? I just want people to realize that we have authorized the Boys and Girls Club to use six of our classrooms at Dixon Middle School from June 2024 through at least January of 2026, depending on when their new club is completed.
We are having them use six classrooms in the CTE wing. These are six areas that are still safe that have not been deemed, you know, seismically unsound and because there are different parts of the building that definitely are. They will also be using the library and the cafeteria because they serve breakfast and lunch and also some storage space.
And the advantage of these particular classrooms is they have stand alone HVAC units, so it really makes it safe for the students to be there and also kind of reduces the overall utilities cost to the district and the Boys and Girls Club will uh, we’re drafting an MOU with them so they’ll be paying a little portion of that But they’re also giving priority to Provo City School District kids to be enrolled in boys and girls club, which I think is an awesome rade for us like they’re just such a great partner with us And then in addition to that then they’re also providing some custodial staff.
So to help us so that that offsets our expenses there. So it really is a very collaborative effort. And then the adult education space where we have our English as a second language classes, and we have various courses to help anybody in the community that wants to expand some community education opportunities that will also still be housed there.
And then we even talked about figuring out a way to make it so that the auditorium could be rented out and what that might look like if there were some community events and certainly the green space can still be used. So we’re excited about that.
I did want to clarify that you still have people in the building. I don’t want people to think, well, then why did we rebuild this? The gymnasium is still completely unsafe. That’s why we’re not allowing people to use that. It has unreinforced concrete ceiling. And that’s why we’re staying in that specific CTE wing. The boiler, which is in the basement of the building is like literally built into the building itself and is on its last leg. And we would not be able to get down there and replace it or repair it at this point in time. Those are some reasons as to why it’s okay that there are a few spaces that are going to be used and we really wanted to make sure we were honoring the Dixon neighborhood and not just boarding it up.
They were worried it was going to become a blight in the neighborhood. We want to be great stewards and great neighbors to people, so.
Devyn: Yep.
Wendy: So one of the things that we had, we’ve talked about, and we even floated this idea with our community. And I think this could be a win if we chose to go down this path.
But one possible idea is to put in place a career and technical education center that would provide some specialized programs for high school students to give them some certifications and things that would help them in their post secondary careers. We could permanently house our CAPS program, which stands for our Center for Advanced Professional Studies.
This is where high school students work with businesses to develop products and really learn how to, you know, take on clients and fulfill what clients are asking for. Right now that’s housed at the Nu Skin building, but it would be nice to have it housed within our own space so that we’re not reliant upon an outside group. We had talked about adding an aviation or robotics, engineering, education, and construction programs. We have a great relationship with MTECH. But some of those key programs are actually located in, at their Lehi campus, which creates a barrier for our students because that’s a long ways to go.
And so if we could have those in house, that would be fantastic. And then we also talked about offering a daycare and a preschool for our employees because that would go along with that education strand. And that is one thing that, you know, as we’re trying to retain our employees. That daycare becomes something that is very prohibitive in terms of cost.
So those could be some cool things as well as continuing to house our adult education program, community education. And then some people may not even know that we have what is known as East Bay Post High. This is a school for 18 to 22 year olds – students with significant disabilities, where they learn life skills, like how to make your bed, how to make food, how to buy groceries.
They are also learning how to hold a job. And right now it’s housed in basically a strip mall, if you will, over by Sam’s Club, right? And we have expanded that space extensively, but it’s just not the same as kids being in a school and feeling like they’re part of a school setting. And so this would allow us to have a permanent location for them.
And then this Dixon site could also be used by the community at night, what do you think are maybe some of the benefits and what might be some of the costs of that Devyn?
Devyn: Well, I think what it can do, especially if we move some CTE programs that can alleviate some of the issues we have at secondary schools because most of those programs Impact Timpview and Provo High students.
It would also help maybe combine some of those classes. They would still be able to be in their own classroom feeder schools, uh, for some of the athletics and extracurricular activities, but they could be housed together and do a little bit more collaboration that way. Some of that is also the playground and the green space. That is super helpful to have for the community and for the daycare if we decided to go that direction.
And we still can provide some of those adult ed for GED and English classes. The English as a second language and providing a permanent location for those East Bay Post High kids would be really helpful. You know, some of the concerns are the ongoing cost of maintenance, transporting students to those locations and just making sure that that site is safe and we build it according to what our needs are.
Wendy: Speaking of that, let’s talk about maybe the costs that might be associated with these two projects and there’s nobody better to talk about money than you.
Devyn: That is true. So currently our, our architect has completed at least the analysis of what’s necessary. And right now we’re looking at about 50 million to complete Timpview for a very long time.
And that would do the administration and counseling, the cafeteria remodel, the performing arts wing, and the CTE wing as a complete replacement. And that would be everything included in that. And then Dixon, we could range it between 30 million and 100 million based on what we decide to do with it. Depending on, on how big it needs to be, what kind of space we need to have.
So that could be anywhere from that 30 to 100 million depending on what we decided and what the community suggested that we do.
Wendy: I appreciate too that you’re talking about what the community is suggesting because I think sometimes when you start hitting certain price tags, the community starts saying, Okay, I’m not sure I’m buying this anymore.
But then as we start to understand, like, what their needs are and be able to explicitly explain how we can achieve that, then we can go out with that kind of budget and, you know, illustrate what we’re able to do with that.
Devyn: And I think one of the things that the community appreciates is having a plan.
You know, we had a plan back in 2018 and 19 to completely rebuild TimpView and that, you know, the total cost and, we had to adjust that, and going through and studying all of our different options and things that we could do, things that would bring us up to code, things that we needed to do to make the school safe, and going and looking at every option, which is why we’re only doing a remodel on the cafeteria, because it is still structurally sound as opposed to replacing it completely. And so we evaluate all of that and have a specific plan.
And pretty concrete costs. Now, we haven’t gone out to bid for it, but with the average cost per square foot right now, that is what the cost would be, you know, and waiting for a lot longer could increase those costs substantially.
Wendy: Excellent. So let’s talk a little bit about how we pay for projects such as this.
Devyn: So school districts are funded in an interesting way. We don’t have a lot of different revenue sources on our state side. There is no state revenue that covers any kind of capital needs. Our state revenue is generally Specifically for K-12 and for all of the services that we provide within that and, you know, we’re provided $4,494 this next year per student for our weighted pupil unit or our WPU that we call it.
And that is specific to the education for administration, for counseling, for special education, all of those services that we provide. And it has increased over the last few years, but a lot of that increase has happened with the decrease of other programs. So it looks like a lot more, but there was a lot of other funding that was cut in order to put in there with the expectation that some of those services would still be provided.
For example, 15 years ago, they used to fund us for any retirement and social security costs as quite a significant dollar amount. Well, they collapsed that program, increased the WPU, but we still had those expenses that we needed to provide.
Wendy: And they don’t ever increase the WPU enough to cover exactly what was being covered before.
Devyn: Nope. They, they, they think that they’re making headway, but they made headway for about 15 years before us, the inflation from that point. So we’re significantly behind other districts and other states. All the districts are funded the same, which is where the WPU comes in. But because of our population being a little bit lower than other large districts, our revenue is naturally lower, but other states fund their districts at a lot higher rate.
So, for example, this year it was a 5 percent increase, which was a 1.2 percent increase, and then they funded us at a 3.8 percent increase for inflation. And I think anybody who’s been to the grocery store repeatedly over the last couple of years knows that their bills have not only gone up by 3.8%. They’re significantly higher than that.
And with some of our costs, like insurance going up double digit percents, uh, insurance for our employees, insurance for our buildings. A lot of that will eat up a lot of our money and will keep us from being able to take care and increase teacher salaries and employees so that we can retain them. That is one of our biggest priorities is making sure that all of our employees are paid well.
And making sure that we have the right number of employees in our schools. And part of that will happen with the boundary study that you talked about and the feasibility study. That will provide us really good information with how do our programs run? Are we efficient? How do our schools run? Are we the proper size to be able to have the right amount of resources in those schools at the right number of students in classes?
And so a lot of that all has to be fit within that dollar amount per student and make sure that we can keep the teachers in our district rather than have them go to other districts because they can make a significant amount more at some of the other districts over their career.
Wendy: Yeah, we’ve had some teachers that are between that You know, six and 20 year mark where if they jump districts, it can be as much as a $10,000 swing, for example, which is a lot, especially when you’re thinking about retirement and just your bottom line from year to year, like, right, it’s a lot.
Devyn: So our other two sources of revenue that we receive our local revenue. Which, the biggest part of that is our property taxes that we receive, and then just a little bit from other local sources, like interest, child nutrition sales, field trip costs, school fees, and indirect charges from grants. And then we have the federal programs, which are the largest being the last few years, the ESSER funding from the federal government to help respond to the pandemic.
So a lot of that was limited. A lot of that was used. We didn’t pay for new things in a lot of ways, except for a lot of instructional assistance to help with students who are struggling with certain things. Most of the money went to pay for the teachers that we needed to keep in order to keep our class sizes relatively small.
When you look at our class sizes in comparison to the other districts, most of our class sizes are much smaller than the other districts, and we try to have an optimum size of about 27.5 per district. grade in the elementary schools in 28.5 with the understanding that a lot of the core classes are a lot larger than that.
But it provides a little bit more flexibility on, on some of those elective courses. And so a lot of our federal revenue is not, it will be going down this year. So those expenses had to be evaluated to make sure that we were doing What we needed to for our existing employees and making sure that our resources were being used wisely. But none of that revenue can be used to fund building schools or any kind of changes that we need to make in our facilities. The only way that we can do that is through the property taxes, which is part of our local revenue but we have specific levies that we can increase for either debt service, which is our preferred way. The government provides a lot better rates when we’re doing general obligation bonds, um, those are federally protected.
And so our interest rates are generally a lot larger if those are
Wendy: Larger or lower
Devyn: The interest rates are smaller. Sorry. I misspoke on that one. I got ahead of myself. On the Municipal Building Authority bonds, which are those that school districts can issue without going to the voters. And when you’re looking at it, one of the people at our community meeting made a really good point.
It’s kind of like going and asking mom a question or asking mom for money and they say no and then going and asking dad because it’s something that’s really important. It is a little bit like that. But it allows the board to actually evaluate what’s really necessary because they are taking on a little bit more of the responsibility to have a little bit of a higher interest rate and to have to make some sacrifices in some of the other funds.
So for example, our last truth in taxation. In 2022, it covered two things, and that was the bond payment for our Municipal Building Authority bond that paid for Shoreline and Wasatch, and the other piece was to increase teacher salaries. The issue with that that didn’t help us was the other districts on both sides of us also did the same thing.
Wendy: Yes they did.
So it didn’t allow us to catch up. It allowed us to increase the salaries, but it didn’t allow us to catch up enough to stop the stream of teachers leaving. And so we did a significant study on the positions that were necessary. Looked to see and a lot of that restructuring that’s been happening has been a part of that evaluation to make sure that our resources were out at our schools and making sure that they had what they needed in order to be successful and that the district office was not too fat on their employees.
Wendy: So I think one of the things that, um, is important about this as well is that a general obligation bond, because the voters get to approve it, often people are saying, well, my property taxes keep going up. And I know you’re going to talk about this a little bit more, but that isn’t necessarily because the school district is taking more money because sometimes it’s because the value of your home has increased and I know you’ll talk more about that, but it actually is a more responsible way to use taxpayer dollars because we get a lower interest rate. If we’re using a municipal building authority bond, it’s a higher interest rate.
Devyn: Correct
Wendy: And so more of that money is going towards interest rather than really to supporting our students.
Devyn: Correct.
Wendy: Okay.
Devyn: And you’re exactly right. So over the last four or five years, we’ve seen a pretty historic increase in the value of, of homes and in businesses to the tune of about $4 billion over the last several years in the city.
Now that growth over the city can be different on one side of the city as opposed to another side or one neighborhood as opposed to another neighborhood. What the public needs to understand is that we do not receive windfalls when your, the values of your home goes up. We ask for a specific amount of revenue.
And that revenue is all that we can bring in, so if the values of homes go up, we don’t get any extra money from that to be able to save for a later time. So as the homes in your neighborhood and yours are going up, the property taxes sometimes will go up a little bit higher for one person than for another person, but that’s because of the area that you live in.
What we really try to do is limit the amount that the public has impacted. We can’t make it a zero amount because we are going to need more in the future, but at the same time, we try to minimize it and make sure that there’s, there’s less impact for four patrons.
Wendy: I thought that was such a great question that we had from one of our patrons where they said, well, my property taxes went up 25 percent and I don’t feel like I’m getting 25 percent better service either from the school district or the city or or whomever it was.
And I thought Steve Reese, our Director of Accounting did a really good job of explaining, well, if your property taxes went up by 25%, somebody else’s went down in a different neighborhood because they can only capture the same amount of money. Like it does not adjust for inflation.
Devyn: It does not.
Wendy: So, so even as costs increase, we’re still just getting that same amount. There’s no adjustment up. And so, like you said, we’re not collecting this windfall. It’s somebody else is actually paying less…
Devyn: Correct.
Wendy: …in the city. And I don’t think I understood that until last night. And I was like, Oh my goodness, I’m sitting here and I learned this. That was amazing because it helped me to have better information for our patrons who sometimes are so frustrated because they think we’re actually just raising these property taxes unilaterally, and it’s like, we don’t have the authority to do that. So this is what’s actually happening.
Devyn: So in the state of Utah, we are actually required to have a set amount of revenue we’re looking for rather than just a rate.
So the rate is set based on the evaluation of the property so that we can bring in the amount of revenue that we’re asking for. If we ask for more revenue in the areas that we have control over, they require us to go to a truth and taxation and the board to formally raise taxes for those needs.
And that is where we have public hearings and people can come and express their concerns. Uh, but what we’re trying to do. on a regular basis is make sure that the public knows that we really are trying to make sure that their resources that they’re already giving us are used wisely and that we really are thoughtful about what we do before we ask for more.
You know, there’s a couple of things that the legislature has done in the last session that has also significantly impacted school districts. So, Senate bill 86 limited the amount of the municipal building authority bonds that a district or any government entity could issue to 200 million over a three year period.
I don’t think we’ll ever reach that, but I think a lot of the other districts will be impacted based on the limit that they’ve set.
Wendy: Yeah, a district that has, you know, growing enrollment and needs to build a lot of schools or they have a lot of aging schools, that can really create some hardship for them.
Devyn: It does. The options right now to pay for the Timpview and Dixon sites are to bond. Uh, we’re not planning to bond for this year, so there’s nothing to vote on this year because we really want to make sure that everything is well planned, well thought out and bid correctly. And it also shows that the district is willing to commit some of its existing resources.
There is a fund balance in capital funds, which we really need to have in order to cover any emergencies that happen. But some of that we would like to keep going on the construction so that we don’t necessarily have to have a break and get people used to having no construction on their site.
Wendy: Well, not to mention too, like if we have a break in that, then they’ll actually go in and like finish a parking lot or something. And then if we turn around and say, Oh, just kidding. We’re going to start this next phase. And they go in and dig that up. That’s not responsible use of taxpayer dollars at all.
Devyn: I do not want to dig up anything I just put down paid money for. And then with the four year construction plan that would allow us to issue the bonds in two different cycles, which would decrease the amount that we would have to, uh, increase the property tax for those GO bonds. And we have a bond falling off in 2027 and then one of our big ones falling off in 2032 and 33.
So, long term we’re looking at not having to increase property taxes very much for debt. And so, we are hopeful that as we design that bond, and the bond schedule payment that parents and patrons will have very little impact.
Wendy: I think what becomes really important as we roll this out is we had a constituent last night. It’s like I want a number like and it’s like well I can’t give you an exact number but I can give you a pretty good range of what that’s going to be based on this because we will be asking for a specific amount of revenue and then they generate the tax rate based on that and I think that’s really where we have to communicate and, you know and help our public understand that piece.
Devyn: Correct. And if anybody out there enjoys math like me, you know, the value of your house, you can multiply that value by 55 percent and then by our projected tax rate. Now I don’t have that for this next year. The County doesn’t open that up until the end of May. So that’s when I will know what that rate is.
So people could have a pretty good idea. For example, this year, our rate was point zero zero seven three three three, and a $500,000 home with the 55 percent amount would be about $2,000 a year, a little over $2,000.
Wendy: And that’s the $2,000 that the school district is taking. So your taxes are higher than that, but that’s the amount that the school district takes.
Devyn: Correct. And part of those taxes go to charter schools. So there’s not even some of that that we see.
Wendy: Okay. That makes sense. That’s helpful at the other piece of that, that I learned because I’m still learning about all of these very complicated financial things that are very helpful is that that 55 percent is important.
So that’s why on your property tax statement, it says what the value of your home is and then it says the taxable amount. It that’s the 55 percent correct?
Devyn: And that’s only applicable for a first home that you live in.
Wendy: So, so if I have a home in downtown Provo and I have a home up at Sundance. Then my second home it’s going to be taxed at the full amount.
Devyn: Correct
Wendy: Okay, perfect. So I think that’s helpful as well. So the goal is if the board decides to go in this direction Is that we want to have a minimal impact in terms of people’s property taxes and be able to create to incredible spaces that are a responsible use of our resources, but provide more opportunities and safety for our students
Devyn: and for our community when you’re looking at Dixon, because that can be used for so many different things.
Wendy: Absolutely. So I hope that many of you will submit questions. On the presentation, it actually has a QR code that’s listed there. There’s also a link on our webpage. It’ll say, submit a question. And if you put your email address in there, that’s really helpful because then we can respond to you and get you in touch with the right information so that you can feel like, okay, I’m getting my questions answered.
We want to be very responsive to that. So let’s talk just a little bit about. Our next steps, we’re going to keep having these community meetings. And we recognize that people are busy and so that’s why we also wanted to do this podcast. So people who can’t come to the meetings could listen to this, but perhaps, you know, even if someone has listened to this and then they want to come to that meeting to just ask some questions that would be super helpful for us as well.
And then we’re going to create a frequently asked questions sheet on our website. Keep track of our patron comments and questions so that we can keep gathering that information and being responsive. We’ve even talked about doing tours of Timpview so people could actually see the areas that need to be redone.
They’re not just trusting pictures or things like that. They could actually see that firsthand. And we would love to hear what other questions you have or what other information would really be helpful to you as you make this decision and as you decide, are we going to support Provo City School District in this effort to, to do these two projects by 2030 and that’s where we really need everybody’s feedback.
Devyn: Correct. And we’d love to have other people’s ideas.
Wendy: Yes.
Devyn: We’re, we’re right in the middle of things and we see things a little bit different than someone from the outside. But also answering those questions and helping people understand what our limitations are is really important to helping people understand and get on board.
Wendy: I agree. I hope people have found this to be informational and really helpful, and maybe it’s just generated a whole bunch more questions, which is actually helpful, because then we know what we still haven’t communicated effectively and can assist with. So thank you so much for explaining school finances and all of these building issues and things so, so well for us. I mean, if you can help me understand this, that’s a big deal and it helps us all to make better decisions.
Devyn: Well, you’re welcome. It’s been a joy.
Wendy: Thanks, Devyn.
Thank you for joining me for this week’s episode of What’s Up with the Sup. As always, all episodes will be posted on the district website, YouTube, and anywhere you get your podcasts. If you have any topics or questions you would like us to discuss on the podcast, please email us at podcast@provo.edu.
We will be back next week with another new episode where we will be highlighting our fantastic teachers. Until then, have a great weekend.
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